Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
Thanks.
On Apr 9, 9:09?am, shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
> Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..
Before you think about getting one of these, read these articles.
http://www.allergyclean.com/article-whatyoushouldknowozone.htm
http://healthandenergy.com/ozone_damages_health.htm
http://www.airtesters.com/ionizers.cfm
Regards
Dear shazl…:
On Apr 9, 6:09 am, shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the
> effectiveness of a small Ozone Generator to deal
> with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
> a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying,
> not simply taking a much-needed piss.
Who desexed him? It may have been the civic-minded thing to do, but
did he go voluntarily?
> Bottom line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent
> problem, is a small Ozone Generator (with thorough
> cleaning) money well spent?
If the cat were telling you what it thinks of being desexed, making it
breathe ozone until dead might cure the problem. As an occasional
area-wide treatment of unoccupied spaces, ozone works well. Otherwise
it is hazardous to breathe, hard on most polymers (like carpet
backing), and not a good idea as you intend.
Change cats. Preferably for a dog. Of course, they "mark" if male…
David A. Smith
<shazl…@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1176124160.786962.312410@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com…
> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
> Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
> a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
> much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
> There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
> issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
> great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
> preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
> research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
We had a similar problem. My wife thought it was manageable until the cat
decided to piss on her pillow and she got a face full when she laid down.
Why not insist that the Mrs. diaper the cat unless he is in his sand box, in
his crate, or outside? This of course will require that the cat be bathed
on a daily basis or perhaps shaved on the diaper area so he can be cleaned
of the offending smell, but the repeated blood loss when shaving the cat
ought to go along way to convince you wife that declawing and disposing are
viable alternatives to tolerating a poorly behaved cat.
Another idea would be to have a large hollow plastic ball made and put the
cat inside. If the cat wants to spray when he is inside the ball then he can
enjoy his scent and you don’t.
–
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
On Apr 9, 8:09 am, shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
> Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
> a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
> much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
> There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
> issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
> great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
> preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
> research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
> Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
> line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
> Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
> Thanks.
You should have had your cat neutered much earlier. My vet says 4
months old is the right time. If you fail to neuter him or do it too
late that is what happens.
Of course you cannot get rid of the cat. It is your responsiblity
to give him a lifetime home. A cat that sprays is a big problem for
which there are few good solutions. You can try the ozone generator
for sure. Try everthing else you can think of as well. It will not
change the cats behaviour.
The cat is mad at you. Sometimes giving the cat some quality time
will change his behaviour. When you come home, immediatly pick the
cat up and give lots of scratches on his head and ears. Then carry
him to the bedroom and let him on your chest for a little while giving
him lots of pets. If you have been using a spray bottle to keep him
off the counters, stop doing that and all other negative style
training.
Keeping interior doors closes will confine the cat and his undesirable
activities. Something cat enthusiasts often do is give the cat his
own room complete with other cats and large climbing posts and
playthings he can play on. Then he stays in that room forever. Many
people will put down a cat that pisses on the family belongings. You
won’t do it and neither will I but it is the only permanent
solution.
"Lawrence" <lwha…@paulbunyan.net> wrote in message
news:1176133537.396424.167630@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com…
> Of course you cannot get rid of the cat. It is your responsiblity
> to give him a lifetime home. A cat that sprays is a big problem for
> which there are few good solutions. You can try the ozone generator
> for sure. Try everthing else you can think of as well. It will not
> change the cats behaviour.
Yes, but as the owner of the cat, you get to decide just how long that
lifetime is.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> The cat is mad at you. Sometimes giving the cat some quality time
> will change his behaviour. When you come home, immediatly pick the
> cat up and give lots of scratches on his head and ears. Then carry
> him to the bedroom and let him on your chest for a little while giving
> him lots of pets. If you have been using a spray bottle to keep him
> off the counters, stop doing that and all other negative style
> training.
> Keeping interior doors closes will confine the cat and his undesirable
> activities. Something cat enthusiasts often do is give the cat his
> own room complete with other cats and large climbing posts and
> playthings he can play on. Then he stays in that room forever. Many
> people will put down a cat that pisses on the family belongings. You
> won’t do it and neither will I but it is the only permanent
> solution.
Enjoy the next 15 years of smelling cat piss and the joy you bring to the
potential owners of the home when you go to sell the place.
–
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
On 9 Apr 2007 06:09:20 -0700, shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
>I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
>Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
>a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
>much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
>There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
>issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
>great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
>preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
>research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
>Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
>line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
>Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
>Thanks.
Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards.
On 9 Apr 2007 06:09:20 -0700, shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
>I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
>Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
>a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
>much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
>There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
>issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
>great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
>preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
>research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
>Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
>line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
>Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
>Thanks.
I had a altered female spray. After talking to her vet, it was
observed she was understress. With their advice I had to tackle the
problem on many levels. Reduce her stresss, since it takes time to
clean up cat urine 100%, and clean up the spots. Her stress was
reduced, without medication, so cleaning up could be tackled. I had
to use an enzyne cleaner(simple solution). It took a while, but
without the stress and the smell of ‘faded’ markers, she stopped
spraying and my house was clean again.
tom @ http://www.Consolidated-Loans.info
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
> Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray
> indoors…..by a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not
> simply taking a much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
> There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
> issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
> great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
> preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
> research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
> Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
> line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
> Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
> Thanks.
A small Ozone generator probably won’t cut it. Get a big one.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
> Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
> a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
> much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
> There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
> issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
> great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
> preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
> research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
> Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
> line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
> Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
> Thanks.
Having had several male cats it appears to me that your mistake was not
neutering the tom very early on. One of the hazards of early neutering
is problems with bladder crystals. Both my neutered males had such
problems and had to be watched carefully so as to apply the medication
lest they suffer from bladder crystals. One guy was very cooperative.
When he was having an attack he would piss in the bathtub and we could
see the blood in his urine. The other cried to indicate the pain. Sprays
that would drive him from spraying a vertical surface will merely force
him to find a different vertical surface to spray. Good luck, I go with
dogs now. The interem period had an all white demon kitty and a short
hair St. Bernard (the original version of the beast before they were
crossed with Newfoundlands to increase size.)
FK
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Goedjn wrote:
> On 9 Apr 2007 06:09:20 -0700, shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
>> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
>> Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
>> a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
>> much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
>> There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
>> issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
>> great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
>> preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
>> research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
>> Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
>> line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
>> Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
>> Thanks.
> Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards.
Then he’ll find a non baseboard surface to spray. You can’t win.
FK
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 14:35:09 -0500, Fred Kasner
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
<fkas…@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Goedjn wrote:
>> On 9 Apr 2007 06:09:20 -0700, shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>>> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
>>> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
>>> Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
>>> a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
>>> much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
>>> There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
>>> issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
>>> great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
>>> preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
>>> research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
>>> Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
>>> line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
>>> Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
>>> Thanks.
>> Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards.
>Then he’ll find a non baseboard surface to spray. You can’t win.
>FK
High voltage elecrical grid on the baseboards, then….
Fred Kasner wrote:
> Having had several male cats it appears to me that your mistake was
> not neutering the tom very early on. One of the hazards of early
> neutering is problems with bladder crystals. Both my neutered males
> had such problems and had to be watched carefully so as to apply the
> medication lest they suffer from bladder crystals. One guy was very
> cooperative. When he was having an attack he would piss in the
> bathtub and we could see the blood in his urine. The other cried to
> indicate the pain. Sprays that would drive him from spraying a
> vertical surface will merely force him to find a different vertical
> surface to spray.
Crystals are caused by cheap food, high in Magnesium content.
Cats are carnivores and cannot digest plant material. Any food that does not
list a meat as its first, chief ingredient (rice, corn, etc.), should be
avoided. You can’t go wrong with a national brand known for quality (Purina,
Iams, Science Diet) but you can kill your kitty with store brands.
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 16:38:33 -0500, "HeyBub" <heybubNOS…@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Cats are carnivores and cannot digest plant material. Any food that does not
>list a meat as its first, chief ingredient (rice, corn, etc.), should be
>avoided. You can’t go wrong with a national brand known for quality (Purina,
>Iams, Science Diet)
Most months.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>but you can kill your kitty with store brands.
On Apr 9, 9:09 am, shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
> Ozone Generator to [snip]
Ozone (O3) is in the news a lot these days and has its place in the
world of chemistry, but as a consumer product has pretty much been a
failure. O3 is a very reactive material and can combine with many
chemicals very rapidly. In your case it MIGHT react with the stink in
kittys pee. The problem is that most of the 03 is used up before it
ever gets to the stinky chemicals. In order to be effective you would
have to use high concentrations of O3 which could damage you or the
surfaces you are trying to deodorize or rarely cause health
problems.
There are a couple of approaches I would take – both "natural" or
biological. (O3 is "natural" but not at high concentrations.) First,
there are products available, through vets I imagine, that contain
enzymes that act naturally to degrade the urine and the odors that are
there. Second, there are commercial cleaners that are used in public
bathrooms that contain bacteria that eat urine and odors that come
from urine. These bacteria are common harmless ones that are found in
the environment. Both these approaches are sold by Novazyme
Biologicals, and I suspect many others.
Sorry but I don’t buy all the psychological approaches – but I’m a
chemist not a pet psychologist. Try both, what do you have to lose
but some stink.
I have 2 cats and 4 dogs. I swore if any of them developed bad habits
such as you’re dealing with that they would have to spend pee-time
outside. We now have one inside cat and one outside cat, and it works
well for all concerned. The outside guy keeps the mouse population in
check and has a warm place to sleep and food to eat and goes to the
vet when he needs it.
If you end up with a positive solution with O3 please let the group
know. I’d like to file it away for future reference.
Good luck.
Harry
Dear hebintn:
On Apr 10, 6:18 am, "hebintn" <bryant539…@bellsouth.net> wrote:
…
> If you end up with a positive solution with O3 please
> let the group know. I’d like to file it away for future
> reference.
Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for
decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing gas does not
exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved ozone level is not too high
(5 ppm or so), and the "area of application" is well ventillated,
industry has had excellent results in surface decontamination.
None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer".
David A. Smith
Try the John Wayne Bobbitt solution – amazing what doctors can do!
On Apr 10, 10:56 am, "dlzc" <d…@cox.net> wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Dear hebintn:
> On Apr 10, 6:18 am, "hebintn" <bryant539…@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> …
> > If you end up with a positive solution with O3 please
> > let the group know. I’d like to file it away for future
> > reference.
> Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for
> decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing gas does not
> exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved ozone level is not too high
> (5 ppm or so), and the "area of application" is well ventillated,
> industry has had excellent results in surface decontamination.
> None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer".
> David A. Smith
Dave,
O3 at this low concentration, 5 ppm, would be probably be totally
reacted with non-target molecules such as soil molecules, fabric
surfaces, or most any unsaturated molecule. Are you talking
deodorization or disinfection? Doesn’t matter O3 sucks at
concentrations usable on soiled surfaces for the consuming public
regardless of the hype you see on TV. Show me some data of O3
efficacy in real world surfaces.
Sounds like you’ve been around O3 projects. 8 ) Are you the Dave
Smith I know that works for a large consumer product company?
Harry
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Goedjn wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 14:35:09 -0500, Fred Kasner
> <fkas…@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Goedjn wrote:
>>> On 9 Apr 2007 06:09:20 -0700, shazl…@yahoo.com.au wrote:
>>>> Ozone Generator -vs- Cat Urine Spray?
>>>> I was hoping to get some advice regarding the effectiveness of a small
>>>> Ozone Generator to deal with the smell of Cat Urine Spray indoors…..by
>>>> a de-sexed male cat. He is deliberately spraying, not simply taking a
>>>> much-needed piss. He is spraying on vertical surfaces.
>>>> There is almost nothing I don’t know about the "territorial behaviour
>>>> issues", prevention, and cleaning. I have spoken to the local Vet in
>>>> great detail. I use an arsenal of special cleaners, and a Pheromone
>>>> preventative spray. I have also done a great deal of personal
>>>> research. Getting rid of the cat is definitely not an option.
>>>> Can you comment about Ozone Generators and their effectiveness? Bottom
>>>> line: If the Cat spraying is a persistent problem, is a small Ozone
>>>> Generator (with thorough cleaning) money well spent?
>>>> Thanks.
>>> Low voltage electrical grid on the baseboards.
>> Then he’ll find a non baseboard surface to spray. You can’t win.
>> FK
> High voltage elecrical grid on the baseboards, then….
The screams will keep you awake all night long. Until he pisses on one
and then is electrocuted to death.
FK
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
HeyBub wrote:
> Fred Kasner wrote:
>> Having had several male cats it appears to me that your mistake was
>> not neutering the tom very early on. One of the hazards of early
>> neutering is problems with bladder crystals. Both my neutered males
>> had such problems and had to be watched carefully so as to apply the
>> medication lest they suffer from bladder crystals. One guy was very
>> cooperative. When he was having an attack he would piss in the
>> bathtub and we could see the blood in his urine. The other cried to
>> indicate the pain. Sprays that would drive him from spraying a
>> vertical surface will merely force him to find a different vertical
>> surface to spray.
> Crystals are caused by cheap food, high in Magnesium content.
> Cats are carnivores and cannot digest plant material. Any food that does not
> list a meat as its first, chief ingredient (rice, corn, etc.), should be
> avoided. You can’t go wrong with a national brand known for quality (Purina,
> Iams, Science Diet) but you can kill your kitty with store brands.
They were fed with ground horsemeat and some added table scraps. So much
for your purported expertise.
FK
Dear hebintn:
On Apr 10, 10:26 am, "hebintn" <bryant539…@bellsouth.net> wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> On Apr 10, 10:56 am, "dlzc" <d…@cox.net> wrote:
…
> > Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for
> > decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing
> > gas does not exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved
> > ozone level is not too high (5 ppm or so), and the "area of
> > application" is well ventillated, industry has had excellent
> > results in surface decontamination.
> > None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer".
> Dave,
> O3 at this low concentration, 5 ppm, would be probably be totally
> reacted with non-target molecules such as soil molecules, fabric
> surfaces, or most any unsaturated molecule. Are you talking
> deodorization or disinfection?
Mox nix. Lysing the little fat pockets that cells breathe through
takes very little longer than getting double carbon bonds.
> Doesn’t matter O3 sucks at
> concentrations usable on soiled surfaces for the consuming public
> regardless of the hype you see on TV. Show me some data of O3
> efficacy in real world surfaces.
Carpet would suck, and would no longer be recognizeable as carpet
after treatment.
> Sounds like you’ve been around O3 projects. 8 )
I had a Co-60 gamma sterilizer in El Paso, so I made ozone in air with
a blue glow. Then I worked for an ozone manufacturer making ozone in
air or oxygen with a purple to blue glow. Then I worked for a gas-to-
liquid contacting company, and ozone came up a lot there also.
> Are you the Dave
> Smith I know that works for a large consumer product company?
I "designed" (physics, my assistant, and my boss helped much) the cell
in this ozone generator, and had much to do with the internal layout:
http://www.gewater.com/pdf/cfe1003en.pdf
So probably not me.
But nice to make your aquaintance.
David A. Smith
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
dlzc wrote:
> Dear hebintn:
> On Apr 10, 10:26 am, "hebintn" <bryant539…@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>On Apr 10, 10:56 am, "dlzc" <d…@cox.net> wrote:
> …
>>>Ozone is mixed with water and sprayed on surfaces for
>>>decontamination. As long as undissolved ozone-containing
>>>gas does not exit the spray nozzle, and the dissolved
>>>ozone level is not too high (5 ppm or so), and the "area of
>>>application" is well ventillated, industry has had excellent
>>>results in surface decontamination.
>>>None of this success will apply to an "electric room deodorizer".
>>Dave,
>>O3 at this low concentration, 5 ppm, would be probably be totally
>>reacted with non-target molecules such as soil molecules, fabric
>>surfaces, or most any unsaturated molecule. Are you talking
>>deodorization or disinfection?
> Mox nix. Lysing the little fat pockets that cells breathe through
> takes very little longer than getting double carbon bonds.
>>Doesn’t matter O3 sucks at
>>concentrations usable on soiled surfaces for the consuming public
>>regardless of the hype you see on TV. Show me some data of O3
>>efficacy in real world surfaces.
> Carpet would suck, and would no longer be recognizeable as carpet
> after treatment.
>>Sounds like you’ve been around O3 projects. 8 )
> I had a Co-60 gamma sterilizer in El Paso, so I made ozone in air with
> a blue glow. Then I worked for an ozone manufacturer making ozone in
> air or oxygen with a purple to blue glow. Then I worked for a gas-to-
> liquid contacting company, and ozone came up a lot there also.
>>Are you the Dave
>>Smith I know that works for a large consumer product company?
> I "designed" (physics, my assistant, and my boss helped much) the cell
> in this ozone generator, and had much to do with the internal layout:
> http://www.gewater.com/pdf/cfe1003en.pdf
> So probably not me.
> But nice to make your aquaintance.
> David A. Smith
Hi Dave,
I have a friend who has designed some very high efficiency bubble
diffusers (originally designed for O2 transfer).
Since the diffusers are ceramic and can be easily fitted with ozone
resistant fittings, I was wondering if you thought there would be a good
market for bubble diffusers as a replacement for injectors. (>90% O2
transfer efficiency in 8′ of water IIRC)
They have an incredible turn down ratio. ( I can’t remember the exact
operating pressure ~20" water IIRC)
When I worked on the diffusers, I noticed there was a lot of reluctance
to try an unproven technology esp in water treatment.
Some were sold for special applications and proved very effective.
I know he has some ideas for improving transfer efficiency even further
– but could this be a solution to a problem nobody wants to solve?
Thanks in advance for any input,
Gregg
Dear Gregg:
"Gregg" <nospam123gcr…@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:8JWSh.6563$ya1.4521@news02.roc.ny…
…
> Hi Dave,
> I have a friend who has designed some very high
> efficiency bubble diffusers (originally designed for
> O2 transfer). Since the diffusers are ceramic
I’ve seen and used porous teflon membranes too…
> and can be easily fitted with ozone resistant fittings,
> I was wondering if you thought there would be a good market for
> bubble diffusers as a replacement for
> injectors. (>90% O2 transfer efficiency in 8′ of water
> IIRC) They have an incredible turn down ratio. ( I
> can’t remember the exact operating pressure ~20"
> water IIRC) When I worked on the diffusers, I
> noticed there was a lot of reluctance to try an
> unproven technology esp in water treatment.
Diffusers have been used in municipal water treatment since the
early 1900s.
Turndown ratios for diffusers are on the order of 50%, which is
fine for some applications. If the growing bubble is filled too
slowly, it doesn’t distribute over the whole surface… just on
the "high spots".
> Some were sold for special applications and proved
> very effective. I know he has some ideas for
> improving transfer efficiency even further – but could
> this be a solution to a problem nobody wants to solve?
> Thanks in advance for any input,
There is a great lot of competition in diffusers. If you can do
it without polymeric seals of any sort, you will have a leg up on
the competition.
I personally *hate* diffuser systems. The diffusers are
constantly requiring service, since ozone will cause iron (among
other things) to go insoluble right on the diffuser. This
requires a full shutdown of the process to remove / replace /
refurbish. Then you have to build huge tanks for contacting.
And you have to make sure the manifold is level and
self-draining. And you require high flow rates, or multi-tier
delivery manifolds for large gas turn-down ratios. Finally, with
large exposed volumes you get very high dissolved oxygen levels,
which pose serious corrosion problems in municipal systems.
I’ll put my salesman’s hat on for a second, even though the
company I used to work for doesn’t work out of Arridzona any
more. Injector systems reside outside the contacting area,
allowing service on components without draining (or wearing a
wetsuit). Injector systems can be arranged to deliver ozone in
just a few tens of feet of pipe… even for huge flow rates, and
mixed to get (in most cases) better then 95% mass transfer.
Injector systems can even be made to keep DO levels close to
ambient saturation, so that you don’t end up with air binding in
filtration systems downstream.
Salesman’s hat comes off…
I added 100 ppd of ozone at 12 wt% to a 350 gpm semiconductor
wastewater flow stream, got about 99% mass transfer (very high
instantaneous demand), and only took about 60 sq feet of floor
space including contacting and destruction of excess gas.
Diffusers don’t require additional power to contact. But that
really is their only benefit. Sorry.
David A. Smith
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Dear Gregg:
> "Gregg" <nospam123gcr…@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
> news:8JWSh.6563$ya1.4521@news02.roc.ny…
> …
>>Hi Dave,
>>I have a friend who has designed some very high
>>efficiency bubble diffusers (originally designed for
>>O2 transfer). Since the diffusers are ceramic
> I’ve seen and used porous teflon membranes too…
>>and can be easily fitted with ozone resistant fittings,
>>I was wondering if you thought there would be a good market for
>>bubble diffusers as a replacement for
>>injectors. (>90% O2 transfer efficiency in 8′ of water
>>IIRC) They have an incredible turn down ratio. ( I
>>can’t remember the exact operating pressure ~20"
>>water IIRC) When I worked on the diffusers, I
>>noticed there was a lot of reluctance to try an
>>unproven technology esp in water treatment.
> Diffusers have been used in municipal water treatment since the
> early 1900s.
> Turndown ratios for diffusers are on the order of 50%, which is
> fine for some applications. If the growing bubble is filled too
> slowly, it doesn’t distribute over the whole surface… just on
> the "high spots".
>>Some were sold for special applications and proved
>>very effective. I know he has some ideas for
>>improving transfer efficiency even further – but could
>>this be a solution to a problem nobody wants to solve?
>>Thanks in advance for any input,
> There is a great lot of competition in diffusers. If you can do
> it without polymeric seals of any sort, you will have a leg up on
> the competition.
> I personally *hate* diffuser systems. The diffusers are
> constantly requiring service, since ozone will cause iron (among
> other things) to go insoluble right on the diffuser. This
> requires a full shutdown of the process to remove / replace /
> refurbish. Then you have to build huge tanks for contacting.
> And you have to make sure the manifold is level and
> self-draining. And you require high flow rates, or multi-tier
> delivery manifolds for large gas turn-down ratios. Finally, with
> large exposed volumes you get very high dissolved oxygen levels,
> which pose serious corrosion problems in municipal systems.
> I’ll put my salesman’s hat on for a second, even though the
> company I used to work for doesn’t work out of Arridzona any
> more. Injector systems reside outside the contacting area,
> allowing service on components without draining (or wearing a
> wetsuit). Injector systems can be arranged to deliver ozone in
> just a few tens of feet of pipe… even for huge flow rates, and
> mixed to get (in most cases) better then 95% mass transfer.
> Injector systems can even be made to keep DO levels close to
> ambient saturation, so that you don’t end up with air binding in
> filtration systems downstream.
> Salesman’s hat comes off…
> I added 100 ppd of ozone at 12 wt% to a 350 gpm semiconductor
> wastewater flow stream, got about 99% mass transfer (very high
> instantaneous demand), and only took about 60 sq feet of floor
> space including contacting and destruction of excess gas.
> Diffusers don’t require additional power to contact. But that
> really is their only benefit. Sorry.
> David A. Smith
Thanks for your input Dave.
It’s good to hear from the other side!
– Don’t be sorry! It’s good to here solid advice before throwing money &
time down the drain.
I’d like to provide a few more details about the diffuser (We made
standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare type diffusers for municipal
waste water systems – they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do
teflon membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30′ water column)
This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine ceramic membrane coated
on a large pore ceramic body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS
fitting is used – screws right in – the diffusers are balanced for DWP
– that is – they can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike
standard diffusers. The end result is- you don’t wind up with dead or
low flow diffusers in the grid. (If it’s plumbed correctly!!) even
though they have a very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also
designed to prevent clogging (A long explanation is required)
I talked with him last night – the diffuser can get 100% transfer in
short column depths << 8ft so no ozone destruction is needed.
Having said all that – There is still a hell of a lot of expensive
plumbing required and maintenance would be a pain.
He’s not looking at selling systems – just diffusers…
With the additional info – do you think there is any benefit?
Gregg
Dear Gregg:
"Gregg" <nospam123gcr…@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:yu2Th.6574$ya1.3660@news02.roc.ny…
…
> Thanks for your input Dave.
> It’s good to hear from the other side!
> – Don’t be sorry! It’s good to here solid advice before
> throwing money & time down the drain.
> I’d like to provide a few more details about the diffuser
> (We made standard ceramic disc, dome & Sanitare
> type diffusers for municipal waste water systems –
> they have fairly low transfer efficiencies as do teflon
> membranes ( per internal O2 transfer testing in 30′
> water column)
Yes, you cannot improve oxygen transfer in wastewater, and if you
do succeed you get no return. There is just too much crap in the
water to get more oxygen in.
> This is a ceramic membrane diffuser system -fine
> ceramic membrane coated on a large pore ceramic
> body which acts as a plenum. A 3/4"or 1" NPT SS fitting is
> used – screws right in –
How is the SS bonded to the ceramic? Aquatic Ecosystems sells a
*very* inexpensive diffuser stone that lasts about a year then
unbonds, blows off, and sinks to the bottom of the contact basin.
> the diffusers are balanced for DWP – that is – they
> can be manufactured to very tight tolerances unlike standard
> diffusers.
Tell this to Refractron.
> The end result is- you don’t wind up with dead or low flow
> diffusers in the grid.
You do if you reduce gas flow to 20%, as is being done now in all
large municipal applications.
> (If it’s plumbed correctly!!) even though they have a
> very flat Flow vs P curve. These membranes are also designed to
> prevent clogging (A long explanation is
> required)
You cannot change chemistry. Unless you have a polymeric surface
that fractures accumulation, you will still have pores getting
blocked.
> I talked with him last night – the diffuser can get
> 100% transfer in short column depths << 8ft so no
> ozone destruction is needed.
Pure horse manure. His dissolved oxygen level must be so low
that *no* bubbles break the surface, otherwise Henry’s law gets
thrown out. I don’t think a diffuser can change the laws of
physics at the surface.
Someone just sold you a "low mileage" used car, sir. Pay no
attention to the racing car numbers still faintly visible under
the spray-can paint job.
> Having said all that – There is still a hell of a lot
> of expensive plumbing required and maintenance
> would be a pain. He’s not looking at selling
> systems – just diffusers… With the additional info –
> do you think there is any benefit?
In small systems, sure. Big enough for your "friend" to make a
living at (or not get sued doing), probably not.
David A. Smith